This is an unfair tax and clearly not well thought out. It is an irresponsible reacton to people moving from cars to motorcycles as a cheaper and quicker and LESS congestive form of transport. The council obviously reacted to having to increase the number of spaces by charging which is counter productive to reducing the congestion in london. They should be promoting motorcycling not discouraging it.

> This is an unfair tax and clearly not well thought
> out. It is an irresponsible reacton to people moving
> from cars to motorcycles as a cheaper and quicker and
> LESS congestive form of transport. The council
> obviously reacted to having to increase the number of
> spaces by charging which is counter productive to
> reducing the congestion in london. They should be
> promoting motorcycling not discouraging it.

Motorcycles take up parking space and therefore should be charged for parking, just like other vehicles.

Why should motorcycle users park for free? If they don't like it they can use the bus or train instead.

Stop moaning an pay your fair share.

Mandycake, you're so wrong! Although bikes take up space they use much less than a single car. One car space can be filled with 10 bikes.

Are you saying that cyclists should be charged to park as well? According to your logic they "take up parking space and therefore should be charged for parking".

So in your ideal world cyclists and bikers are charged to park, & " if they don't like it they can use the bus or train instead."

So that's 16,000 ex-bikers using London Transport and God knows how many cyclists. Do you think public transport in London is under-used and could accommodate these extra people?

Maybe 1 in 10 bikers will use a car instead, that'd be an extra 1,600 cars in London's rush hour. Brilliant!

The crucial point is that Westminster brought these charges in to pay for 2000 extra motorcycle parking spaces. That cost them £302,000 - their figures. Total received so far, in just 6 months is 2.2 MILLION POUNDS.

Motorcycle and Scooter riders of London have paid for the extra spaces SEVEN times over.

what if all the poeple using bikes and scooters were to use the already overcrowed and overpriced public transport ?
This is just yet another tax introduced by a conservative controlled borough which goes against the conwervative party policy of encouraging the use of bikes !

As a resident of Westminster I was shocked and appalled when this additional tax was brought in last summer. I do not consider it fair that it cost me £80 for a residents car space per year, yet a staggering £150 to park my scooter. I also do not believe it fair that my scooter should receive a parking fine the same as a car of £40. As this scheme has gone on I have had to fight 3 incorrectly PCN's because of the incompetence of NCP service, who Westminster City Council have employed to patrol the streets.

I have been amazed at the level of spin boarding on lies put out by my council, firstly to introduce the scheme, and then to try to justify it. I have not seen any of the promised security devices or noticed any additional parking bays. My council have never be able to tell me where the extra 2 million pound (and still rising) profit for this scheme has gone. It is time our local councillors were accountable to the residents who elected them, and not to the large corporations that win these contracts with Westminster.

Westminster have suggested they would like to sell this pay by phone system to other councils all over the UK. I feel they will not stop at scooters, bicycles will be next.

> As a resident of Westminster I was shocked and
> appalled when this additional tax was brought in last
> summer. I do not consider it fair that it cost me £80
> for a residents car space per year, yet a staggering
> £150 to park my scooter.

What does it cost 150 for your scooter? Is it because it's a second vehicle or something?

> I also do not believe it
> fair that my scooter should receive a parking fine
> the same as a car of £40.

Why? If you park it illegally why shouldn't you get fined?

> What does it cost 150 for your scooter? Is it because
> it's a second vehicle or something?

Westminster Council charge people who live in the borough £150 for a Resident's Permit for a scooter or motorcycle. If you've already paid £80 for a car permit and are parking your bike in the same space you still have to pay £150. Is that fair ??

>Why? If you park it illegallywhy shouldn't you be fined?

If a bike takes up a quarter of the space of a car, causes no congestion and far less pollution than a car, why should it receive the same penalty? The largest motorbikes pay 1/4 of the road tax that a car does. Why is that?
Cars aren't allowed in London's bus lanes but scooters and motorbikes are. Why is that ?
No other local authority in the world charges motorbikes to park. Why is that?

The answer to all these questions is that everyone in authority (except Westminster council) are encouraging motorcycle and scooter use to reduce congestion and pollution. Westminster council thinks it's okay to spend £23,000 on new parking spaces for bikes and charge bikes to recoup their expenditure, rake in £2 million in the first 6 month trial period then make the scheme permanent. We're two-wheeled commuters not cash machines!!!

> We're two-wheeled
> commuters not cash machines!!!
>
But you are perfectly happy for four wheeled commuters to be regarded as cash machines. Honestly, some of the hypocrisy on this thread is jaw dropping.

london_boy, where did I say I was perfectly happy with car drivers being treated as cash machines?

I didn't even suggest that.

If car drivers decided to start protesting at the ridiculously high parking charges that Westminster hits them with, then I'd be behind them 100%. For some reason though, car drivers seem to take it all on the chin. I guess motorcyclists have enough to put up with and are less likely to take any more nonsense.

>that implies you could put millions of them on the same road with no impact

If you took a million cars off the road the answer is you probably would not get congestion

>But there's still limited available parking space for motorcycles and scooters, so if you abuse the terms of their use then you should be fined

There is a limited number of spaces but Westminster should provide more to encourage bike's while the congestion charge (admittedly not under Westminster control) makes more space available that would be taken up by cars.

>The Dartford Tolls are a prime example of them taking us for a ride

So support us the Mega demo on March 31st see www.notobikeparkingfees.com for details. If we scrap this it makes it easyer for all road users to scrap or reduce all road charges!

> > What does it cost 150 for your scooter? Is it because
> > it's a second vehicle or something?
> Westminster Council charge people who live in the
> borough £150 for a Resident's Permit for a scooter or
> motorcycle. If you've already paid £80 for a car
> permit and are parking your bike in the same space
> you still have to pay £150. Is that fair ??

Doesn't sound it to me. I think there should be A charge, but 15 0 is steep.

> >Why? If you park it illegallywhy shouldn't you be fined?
> If a bike takes up a quarter of the space of a car,
> causes no congestion and far less pollution than a
> car, why should it receive the same penalty?

The same reason that vans and trucks receive the same penalty, even though they're larger. And bikes don't cause "no congestion" because that implies you could put millions of them on the same road with no impact.

> The
> largest motorbikes pay 1/4 of the road tax that a car
> does. Why is that?
> Cars aren't allowed in London's bus lanes but
> scooters and motorbikes are. Why is that ?
> No other local authority in the world charges
> motorbikes to park. Why is that?

No other city in the world charged cars to enter it, unitl London was the first.

> The answer to all these questions is that everyone in
> authority (except Westminster council) are
> encouraging motorcycle and scooter use to reduce
> congestion and pollution.

But there's still limited available parking space for motorcycles and scooters, so if you abuse the terms of their use then you should be fined.

> Westminster council thinks
> it's okay to spend £23,000 on new parking spaces for
> bikes and charge bikes to recoup their expenditure,
> rake in £2 million in the first 6 month trial period
> then make the scheme permanent. We're two-wheeled
> commuters not cash machines!!!

Unfortunately this is always the way, and I sympathize. The Dartford Tolls are a prime example of them taking us for a ride.

> > As a resident of Westminster I was shocked and
> > appalled when this additional tax was brought in last
> > summer. I do not consider it fair that it cost me £80
> > for a residents car space per year, yet a staggering
> > £150 to park my scooter.
> What does it cost 150 for your scooter? Is it because
> it's a second vehicle or something?
>
The the scooter is a second vehicle to the car. The scooter takes up less room than the car but costs nearly twice as much to park.

> > I also do not believe it
> > fair that my scooter should receive a parking fine
> > the same as a car of £40.
> Why? If you park it illegally why shouldn't you get
> fined?

I was not parked illegally. The Westminster parking wardens are not trained very well and could not tell the difference between the number 0 and the letter o, so it would look as if i hadn't paid, so they issue me with a PCN.

This just goes to show that we no longer live in a free democratic state. It is really a democratic police state. Anyway you've got to pay the extra to subsidise the politicians false expenses claims. I totally agree BIKES SHOULD BE FREE.
The Westminster Council have actually admitted that this is a tax and not a charge to parking. It is just getting their own back.

"Why should motorcycle users park free?"

Because they should be encouraged! Ever seen a traffic jam of scooters? nope, neither have I. If every car driver rode a bike there wouldn't BE any congestion.

Scrap parking fees. Either allow parking or not. Don't charge.

Good on the bikers for standing up to Westminster. Parking shouldn't be about making money! I don't know why car drivers have just accepted the current situation. We all seem to be fed up with paying so much to park our cars yet we don't actually do anything about it. If we did what the bikers are doing now when parking charges were first introduced for cars, we would not be in this mess.

It seems motorbike and scooter parking is at a critical point right now, as if Westminster decides to make the trial permanent, I imagine bike parking in London and other parts of the UK will become like car parking is now.

I have never understood why car drivers (or any vehicles) are charged for parking. It doesn't stop congestion, it just means the rich can park where they like and the poor can park hardly anywhere.

Fairly often I see expensive cars parked on double yellows/red routes or driving in bus lanes and I guess that they are happy to risk getting a fine as they can afford it and probably feel that the time they save is worth more than the fine they may receive.

In Borehamwood there is 'pay and display' parking with a difference, you don't actually have to pay; you press the button on the machine and get a free ticket to put in your windscreen that allows you to park for a short time to use the local shops/market. This is a great method as it encourages shoppers and doesn't mean the rich can park for hours while the poor can't afford to park at all. I've seen this in other places where you pay a small fee of 10p which I think is a reasonable charge to cover admin of the machine and tickets.

How come councils charge so much for residents parking permits? Surely it should only be a small admin fee for the actual permit.

They'll be charging for bicycle parking next!

Why is everything always about making money???

Although I don't ride a bike I wish the no bike parking charges campaign all the best and hope you get the result you want!

Because they're not getting the income from parking fines and/or car drivers coming in to park.
Wandsworth's justification for the 26% increase in residents permits is the same. So, we are paying for people not breaking the law or not using their vehicles to shopping in.
Parking fees and fines should not be included in the annual budget estimation and taken as bit of icing on the cake at the end. Not pre spent at the beginning. But then we are all paying for their gold plated pensions.

I believe it's called 'looking through the wrong end of the telescope'

I think the introduction of a parking tax by Westminster City Council is outrageous. Motorcycles and scooters do not cause congestion and do not pollute as much as cars. They are the solution to a congested and polluted city and for this reason, their use should be encouraged. Stealth taxing motorcyclists is completely counter-productive to Boris's initiatives to encourage londoners to move from 4 to 2 wheels.

Westminster City Council, as a money orientated local authority led by conservative councillers, has reacted to the increasing number of bikers in London by stealth taxing them, instead of recognising that they are a SOLUTION to London.

The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea has introduced FREE car parking on Saturdays to promote local businesses, while Conservative Counciller Danny Chalkley from Westminster Council dared to ask Boris to suspend the congestion charge during the Christmas 2008 period in a view to attract more shoppers and double parking income for the council. This is just purely disgusting and hypocrit. And now the same Chalkley is stealth taxing motorcyclists for parking.

Westminster City Council, due to bad management, has lost £17 million in Iceland banks and who is paying for this? Motorcyclists by being taxed on parking!

this parking fee is a another attack on the put upon working Londoners. scooters and motorbikes are the answer to the appalling congestion in this city .we have to put up the constant danger , bad road surfaces and crappy weather, a free parking space makes all the difference when it comes to deciding to buy a bike and use it for work .if you buy a small scooter on hp, take the running costs into consideration it is a good alternative to the train, but ............... throw in the extra £30 a month to park.. and the figures become a lot closer.... enough to put many off and keep them on the overcrowded train, tell me Westminster how does this help the smooth running of our city ???
this must be stopped before other greedy council officials get ideas !!!
we must all join the Trafalgar square mega demo (31 march 5.00 onwards) that includes non bike riders who are fed-up with this increasing greed and oppression by small minded petty faceless bureaucrats

>guylondon121

>I think the introduction of a parking tax by Westminster City Council is outrageous. Motorcycles and scooters do not cause congestion and do not pollute as much as cars. They are the solution to a congested and polluted city and for this reason

You're kidding right?

Many motorbike riders (who I refer to as lazy cyclists) I see have highly aspirated one litre engines that idle at high revs, and what's more many motorcyclists sit at lights revving them up as a warning to pedestrians not to start crossing the road and when the lights do go green often gun it down the road at vey high speeds.

Motorbikes are incredibly polluting.

The solution is more push bikes not more motorbikes and scooters.

Motorbikes are churning out more pollution than cars, even though they make up only a small fraction of vehicles on the roads, according to a report.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2005/dec/21/travelandtransport.transportintheuk

Actually that report has been discredited for a number of reasons. Not least that emissions from M/C have been tightened considerably since the report was compiled.

- M/C parking has never been charged in the UK
- M/C parking is not charged in any other borough
- DoT, TFL, Conservative party policy is all to encourage motorcycling for it's ability to reduce congestion. Hence the zero congestion charge and the recent decision to allow M/C into TFL bus lanes

And yet WCC have chosen to milk a section of their customers for money that they wouldn't otherwise have been able to collect. From their point of view it's £2-3m PA additional income for a one off investment of £2-300k. It has nothing to do with congestion, parking demand, additional security or anything else. It's purely about the money.

If you want to use the space then pay for it. Bikers are just people as those in cars are just people. London is not the French countryside where there is lots of space for everyone. Most of us who ride bikes do it due to not wanting to take public transport. It costs a lot more for me to have a bike to get to work than it costs for public transport. But I pay this cost as I know taking public transport is ****!!!. I agree it's just another tax but we must all pay the same or it's not fair. Car drivers pay and so should us on bikes.

If the people on bikes want to make a stand then don't ride your bike to work and leave the spaces empty. Or park in a place near and walk to work?

> If you want to use the space then pay for it.

We are paying for it multiple times over, that's another part of the problem - if they spent £80,000/annum on improving bike parking they'd already have covered 68 years worth of improvements. It is no longer justifiable to claim it is 'to cover the cost of improvements'

> London is not the French countryside where there is
> lots of space for everyone.

There is plenty of available space if they use their heads, and if the congestion charge was so successful how come they can't convert some car bays?!

> It costs a lot more for me to have a bike to get to work
> than it costs for public transport. But I pay this
> cost as I know taking public transport is ****!!!.

And expensive. And for me, I can't risk being stuck for an hour in traffic or I'll lose my clients, and I get paid on commission.

> If the people on bikes want to make a stand then
> don't ride your bike to work and leave the spaces
> empty. Or park in a place near and walk to work?

But we ARE making a stand!!!!! To retain free on street parking, like every other major city in the world!!!!

This is NOT about covering costs anymore - IT IS A STEALTH TAX. THEY KNOW IT. WE KNOW IT. It now comes down to whether you are prepared to let them rip people off more than they already have, whether you ride a bike or not, and I for one will make my voice heard before I let them think they can fleece the public in such a blatant and arrogant way.

>Many motorbike riders (who I refer to as lazy cyclists) I see have highly >aspirated one litre engines that idle at high revs, and what's more many >motorcyclists sit at lights revving them up as a warning to pedestrians not >to start crossing the road and when the lights do go green often gun it >down the road at vey high speeds.

Motorbikes generally accelerate faster as they weigh less in relation to their engine's power. Cars also accelerate fast on occasion, and have sometimes nearly knocked me off while trying to overtake me (I am on a 50cc vespa).

And should they just let pedestrians find themselves in the middle of three lanes of traffic rather than revving the engine to alert those about to cross that the lights are changing? Surely pedestrians should have a little more sense anyway?!

Please also feel free to tell anyone with a leg injury who uses a scooter to get on a push-bike.

>The solution is more push bikes not more motorbikes and scooters.

The only accident I ever had in London was after a cyclist ran a red light and by trying to avoid him I came off the scooter. He saw it, and cycled off.

I see them running red lights, mounting pavements, going the wrong way up one way streets, crossing into the opposite carriageway, pulling out without looking, cycling on their phones, entering crossings before the light has gone green and hovering in the middle of the road balancing, the list is endless. Not all, but many cyclists are like this and to say what many contributors have - that motorbike and scooter riders are less safety conscious - is laughable.

I'm not against them at all, but those in glass houses should not throw stones.

Scooters are a brilliant way of entering the centre of London from greater distances, taking up less room, alleviating congestion on slow and in many cases highly unpleasant modes of public transport, we have MORE than paid for any improvements now, and it's time to stop this ridiculous tax.

> Scooters are a brilliant way of entering the centre
> of London from greater distances, taking up less
> room, alleviating congestion on slow and in many
> cases highly unpleasant modes of public transport, we
> have MORE than paid for any improvements now, and
> it's time to stop this ridiculous tax.

A 50cc scooter with a top-speed of 30mph on the flat does not alleviate congestion.

> A 50cc scooter with a top-speed of 30mph on the flat does not alleviate congestion.

You can do 30 in central London? You got a helicopter?

m@